Outlook suiteable as a kopano fat client?

  • Kopano

    @mcostan said in Outlook suiteable as a kopano fat client?:

    why Kopano can’t write (well, again) a native connector to Outlook

    It’s not that we can’t. But (and that was widely communicated when the old mapi client was discontinued) we don’t see a future in the Outlook desktop application, and therefore want to spent our available resources in areas we can innovate.

    The Kopano Ol Extension provided a good way in the middle. Take whats already in Outlook and with manageable resources add some bits that we saw as essential.

  • @manfred thank you for the clearification.
    Sad, that this circumstance was never published this way, officially.

    In other words: Outlook 2013+ with a huge users mailbox doesn’t work.
    If a user wants to have access to his mailbox, he doesn’t want to use different clients, one to work with and a partial mailbox, because he needs additional plugins and one to have access to all items.

    Am I right, that searching and accessing mails older than one month isn’t possible when ActiveSync is set to sync one month or is there any way to access them within Outlook, except setting the sync to all?


  • Kopano

    @onex-de said in Outlook suiteable as a kopano fat client?:

    Am I right, that searching and accessing mails older than one month isn’t possible when ActiveSync is set to sync one month or is there any way to access them within Outlook, except setting the sync to all?

    Outlook will always only do a local search and does not query the backend (although this is generally possible in activesync)

  • @fbartels said in Outlook suiteable as a kopano fat client?:

    Outlook will always only do a local search and does not query the backend (although this is generally possible in activesync)

    I know, my mobile is using this option, too bad Outlook doesn’t do it. :(

    In this case, moving older mails to an “locale” pst-file as an archive and reducing the amount of items via z-push seems to be the only option beside switching back to Mickeysofts Exchange, isn’t it?

  • Kopano

    - DISCLAIMER: This post reflects my personal opinion, not necessarily Kopano’s. I just though a little bit insight could help you understand some of my/our thinking here. -

    Just as a side note: KOE works considerably well for me.

    I’m not saying this as a Kopano employee but I (for the sake of my role) also push myself to use outlook as well next to webapp/deskapp. In short: I have like 3 mailboxes configured in there with a total of 30GB of data synced.

    True, I have a fast client. That is a clear recommendation, since also mobile phones don’t work on rotating spindles… ;) But seriously: I personally have no issues and please also note that the ActiveSync implementation of Outlook was never perfect, but at least I can say it does a good job in general (and I also want to add that we also have actually very positive feedback from many customers as well).

    @onex-de: There is another option: Running Kopano-Archiver, which you can use to offload primary mail to archive mailboxes. You could make them available via webapp/deskapp and just in outlook have the primary mailbox. there are many ways to do it.

    Generally speaking: It’s true, ActiveSync in Outlook is not ideal, but KOE does a (reported) quite successful job in providing some of the enterprise features for customers using Outlook 2013+.

    To the question: Why no MAPI client? https://www.zarafa.com/how-zarafa-wants-to-solve-user-challenges-with-a-new-client-strategy/ To add to this, what we’ve been communicating at that time now comes as announced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_2019 - Pure C2R Installations. Missing functionality for non-MS-backends as this was limited by MS. https://blogs.office.com/2017/04/20/office-365-proplus-updates/ and also check out https://www.groovypost.com/news/microsoft-end-support-standalone-office-by-2020/ .

    Don’t get me wrong. Office 365 is generally a nice product, the major downside to it though that on the long run you might be stuck (vendor lock-in).

    We as Kopano take care of communication in general (beyond what outlook provides, e.g. chatops, web meetings, file sharing, etc.), all under your control. You being you personally on a NUC at home or a hoster hosting millions of mailboxes for their customers.

    Zarafa = Drop-in replacement for exchange/outlook. Kopano = Alternative to exchange/outlook with broader communication capabilities.

    While I understand you see this is sad on one side (Outlook), the world is changing. And also the original connector was not perfect, since 2010 MS has made life harder as they’ve “ifdef’ed” certain (standard) calls to work only with MSEMS transport (Exchange).

    Aside from that: Just check out your favorite search engine for market share of Outlook and its declining over years now. I agree that for some Outlook is unquestionable which is why there is KOE. It has been implemented in the MOST NATIVE POSSIBLE way, allowing all API-calls, etc. just to work. The only other alternative (protocol-oriented way) would be to implement MAPI/HTTP and EWS (both). MAPI/HTTP: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee177988(v=exchg.80).aspx For a general overview of all involved proto docs, just go ahead and check this out: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc463895(v=exchg.80).aspx

    So much for “it can’t be that hard”. Sure, if we would dedicate ourselves entirely we would be able to pull this off, it would take quite some years, and probably we’ll end up in a situation where when we’ve finally reached that point MS pulls this plug for whatever reason. I bring this up so you might understand the major WHY Kopano is not in the “Outlook business”. BTW: There is a project called openchange where someone dedicated worked on an implementation like this for 9(!) years, unfortunately without scalability and performance as there have been some shortcuts (based on samba4 RPC/IDN) and now the project is dead. :(

    Sorry to say, but we really don’t have the same resources as MS. So implementing MAPI/HTTP & EWS is simply out of scope, at least for the moment. I’ll say so if this changes… BTW: tell me one other solution who did implement MAPI/HTTP & EWS (server, not client(!)) ;)

    We are very proud to back the first native open source EAS implementation with Z-Push and the progress with it (including also KOE) has been quite nice compared to other solutions we know of. Also, this feedback is also what we’ve got in return from (not all) partners and customers. This is a protocol that we’ve been able to handle since many years now, it is a very vital project with us as Kopano also into it and a vibrant community.

    If you want Exchange: Go for it. Sorry to hear, but we’ll probably not be able to stop you … ;) The only thing we want to advertise: If you want to work productively, with best mobile & tablet support, the seamless ability to hold web meetings, seamless ability of sharing your data and an awesome API in the works (no spoilers here, just wait for conference): Kopano might be something you should consider. Outlook? Well, it lacks many of the above functionality, so you need to think of maybe using an alternative? There are many out there which we also support. And, heck, yes, even with IMAP/POP if you like and now with upcoming CalDAV/CardDAV implementation you might be a happy puppy as well …

    We’re looking forward to deliver the best overall, truly 100% open source communication solution, and being included downstream in distributions such as openSUSE, Debian and Ubuntu show: The community seems to think the same.

  • @ivamp

    sorry I’m new here. Where can I find these tickets KS-39749, KS-40430 and KS-39607 ?


  • Kopano

    @apvit said in Outlook suiteable as a kopano fat client?:

    Where can I find these tickets

    these numbers refer to support cases, these tickets are only visible for the reporter and Kopano.

  • Hi,

    I agree with @mkromer, offloading large mailboxes to Kopano-Archiver is a good solution BUT
    Outlook (with KOE) as Kopano client needs a more convenient way to access Kopano-Archiver, plugin (KOE?) based, not only a link to WebApp (extra App(browser) to start, login etc.).

    In addition, Kopano-Archiver urgently needs the already announced features regarding legally compliant e-mail archiving, otherwise legally almost an additional third-party solution must be integrated.
    Is there any progress or detailed roadmap in that direction?

    I know many users with large boxes and the need or unconditional wish for Outlook, but useful Kopano-Archiver with convenient access would be a good & acceptable solution.
    Nobody knows the future development of Outlook (2019) in detail but one should keep in mind that OL 2016 will be widespread until 2026. Kopano should not exclude already these large market areas, perhaps the user desire or dependencies to Outlook in some years are also not so strong.

    Just my 2 cents …

    Best regards, Robert

  • We have been watching Kopano for some time and are extremely interested, however we cannot use your product(s) due to the lack of a real connection to Outlook. ActiveSync isn’t it. Presently we use with Kerio specifically because of it’s native connector. However they were just bought by GFI and we are not certain we like where things are going. We are stuck at the moment.

    We are a managed services company. We cater to small & medium businesses. One service we provide is email hosting to thousands and thousands. Here is what we’ve learned about our customers:

    • Every single desk at every single customer (except one) uses Outlook.
      Windows is the operating system of business. With Microsoft reclaiming the title of most valuable company, and the success of Office 365, that will only be reinforced, not fade away.
    • Mac’s are too expensive and Google Chrome (as in ChromeBook) is a non-starter. Fat apps will not leave our lives until progressive web apps mature, or perhaps never.
    • People won’t change unless forced. They know what they know, and don’t want to know anything more.
    • Anyone older than a Millennial was raised on Outlook. Microsoft Office is a mainstay of the office. There was a recent article in the US as well stating the most sought after employee these days is Gen X. Millennials don’t want to work hard, so employers are courting the generation that will. Despite the politic, Gen X will be a mainstay in our workforce for another 20+ years.
    • Anyone breaking into the workforce with one of our customers, despite not wanting to change, is being forced to use Outlook, because of a “that is what we do” mentality.
    • If a customer wants something from you, telling them, “you are out of luck”, without a rational alternative that fits their needs, is usually the last thing you tell that customer… before they become someone else’s customer.

    I recognize our demographic is only a portion of the population, but it is a large portion. For years to come, native Outlook compatibility is essential. It is stopping us from seriously considering Kopano.

  • Kopano

    @patanne in that case I would recommend to get in contact with our sales team, they can provide you with some arguments against outlook and office 365.

  • That is really one of the most pathetic arguments I have heard. Why argue against something that is not going away?

    As of September 2019 Outlook accounts for 11% of email clients and is growing. If you remove browser-based email clients that number jumps dramatically. Almost daily the news demonstrates they are making a comeback. I am not a Microsoft fan but, while I don’t use Outlook myself, I won’t ignore reality either.

    I will continue to not use your products for my clients while you continue to dismiss such a sizeable market segment.

  • Kopano

    @patanne said in Outlook suiteable as a kopano fat client?:

    Why argue against something that is not going away?

    Because supporting it does not come for free and requires lots of work.

    Again I would recommend you to get in touch with our sales team.

    -> closing